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	<title>Comments on: Convergence Can&#8217;t Be Denied</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/</link>
	<description>Accelerating Social Innovation</description>
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		<title>By: Happy birthday blog! &#124; New Philanthropy Capital&#39;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1399</link>
		<dc:creator>Happy birthday blog! &#124; New Philanthropy Capital&#39;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1399</guid>
		<description>[...] 5. Social capital markets vs civil society?: Tris Lumley&#8217;s response to Michael Edwards earlier post was part of a huge debate in the blogosphere here, here, here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 5. Social capital markets vs civil society?: Tris Lumley&#8217;s response to Michael Edwards earlier post was part of a huge debate in the blogosphere here, here, here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nell Edgington</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1125</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell Edgington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1125</guid>
		<description>David,

I agree that it would be a tragedy if we didn&#039;t learn from our past or from the three different sectors, which is why I always try to argue that convergence, when it is taking the best of the three worlds, is a good thing.  No one sector can solve all of our problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>I agree that it would be a tragedy if we didn&#8217;t learn from our past or from the three different sectors, which is why I always try to argue that convergence, when it is taking the best of the three worlds, is a good thing.  No one sector can solve all of our problems.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1121</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1121</guid>
		<description>Nell, nice post.  Michael, excellent work overall. 

Before I chime in here, I should offer a disclaimer that I work closely, though not exclusively, with the social venture space.

Nell, the buzz about social enterprise that&#039;s taken the sector by storm seems to imply that nonprofits/ngos, are broken, ineffective, and/or inherently not scalable. Markets, they seem to argue, are the best - if not the only - solution.  (I wonder what has changed about markets since the advent of market failure. I also wonder why thousands of exceptionally bright development professionals over the years simply failed to miss the solution to development challenges across the globe.  My sense is that the challenges we face cannot be solved simply by putting on our capitalist hats and getting to work.) Unfortunately, those who seem most enthusiastic about social enterprise appear to be uninformed about the history of ideas around civil society and the history of the nonprofit sector and/or international development.  As any &#039;student&#039; of this would know, the nonprofit sector, and nonprofits, perform many roles in society.  

Perhaps most troubling, in not knowing the history of the nonprofit sector, or international, it seems social enterprise evangelists are destined to repeat the same mistakes the nonprofit sector, and development, have made over the past 4 plus decades. This would be a tragedy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nell, nice post.  Michael, excellent work overall. </p>
<p>Before I chime in here, I should offer a disclaimer that I work closely, though not exclusively, with the social venture space.</p>
<p>Nell, the buzz about social enterprise that&#8217;s taken the sector by storm seems to imply that nonprofits/ngos, are broken, ineffective, and/or inherently not scalable. Markets, they seem to argue, are the best &#8211; if not the only &#8211; solution.  (I wonder what has changed about markets since the advent of market failure. I also wonder why thousands of exceptionally bright development professionals over the years simply failed to miss the solution to development challenges across the globe.  My sense is that the challenges we face cannot be solved simply by putting on our capitalist hats and getting to work.) Unfortunately, those who seem most enthusiastic about social enterprise appear to be uninformed about the history of ideas around civil society and the history of the nonprofit sector and/or international development.  As any &#8216;student&#8217; of this would know, the nonprofit sector, and nonprofits, perform many roles in society.  </p>
<p>Perhaps most troubling, in not knowing the history of the nonprofit sector, or international, it seems social enterprise evangelists are destined to repeat the same mistakes the nonprofit sector, and development, have made over the past 4 plus decades. This would be a tragedy.</p>
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		<title>By: Bijan Kafi</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1075</link>
		<dc:creator>Bijan Kafi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 09:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1075</guid>
		<description>Over the course of the last 80 years many researchers have covered the issue of convergence, its benefits and possible downsides. Many of them have been rigorously ignored by the economic scientific establishment and labelled &quot;alternative&quot; (in best cases) because they proposed (and continue to) a redesign of the capitalist system that&#039;s not going down well with that exact same establishment. 

Our economic system is not a natural constant. It&#039;s an invention. And it&#039;s a very young one that already has accumulated an astonishing record of global destruction while bringing us stuff we know we mostly don&#039;t even need. This system was designed by humans for humans and it can be changed by humans. Mankind has lived and prospered for thousands of years on different systems of wealth generation and will have to fundamentally rethink the current system if it wants to continue to prosper.

Convergence is an aspect of this system. And the fact that it also has positive effects does not change the basic insight of the analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over the course of the last 80 years many researchers have covered the issue of convergence, its benefits and possible downsides. Many of them have been rigorously ignored by the economic scientific establishment and labelled &#8220;alternative&#8221; (in best cases) because they proposed (and continue to) a redesign of the capitalist system that&#8217;s not going down well with that exact same establishment. </p>
<p>Our economic system is not a natural constant. It&#8217;s an invention. And it&#8217;s a very young one that already has accumulated an astonishing record of global destruction while bringing us stuff we know we mostly don&#8217;t even need. This system was designed by humans for humans and it can be changed by humans. Mankind has lived and prospered for thousands of years on different systems of wealth generation and will have to fundamentally rethink the current system if it wants to continue to prosper.</p>
<p>Convergence is an aspect of this system. And the fact that it also has positive effects does not change the basic insight of the analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Mowatt</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1074</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Mowatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1074</guid>
		<description>Thanks to John Gapper&#039;s post in a year old blog that I discovered just today, I was able to link key events together  Hopefully my comments are visible.   

http://tinyurl.com/bmvocw

In the work on inclusive capitalism that began a decade ago, it had been argued as a means to strengthen civil society rather than replace it.

I guess that must be something that neither Michael Edwards nor Matthew Bishop would want to know.   

Jeff Mowatt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to John Gapper&#8217;s post in a year old blog that I discovered just today, I was able to link key events together  Hopefully my comments are visible.   </p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/bmvocw" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/bmvocw</a></p>
<p>In the work on inclusive capitalism that began a decade ago, it had been argued as a means to strengthen civil society rather than replace it.</p>
<p>I guess that must be something that neither Michael Edwards nor Matthew Bishop would want to know.   </p>
<p>Jeff Mowatt</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Philanthropy Daily Digest &#124; Tactical Philanthropy</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1071</link>
		<dc:creator>Philanthropy Daily Digest &#124; Tactical Philanthropy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1071</guid>
		<description>[...] Convergence Can’t Be Denied &#124; Social Velocity Nell Edgington jumps into my debate with Michael Edwards and says it is just silly to deny that nonprofits operate within a market framework. (tags: philanthropy) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Convergence Can’t Be Denied | Social Velocity Nell Edgington jumps into my debate with Michael Edwards and says it is just silly to deny that nonprofits operate within a market framework. (tags: philanthropy) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1070</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1070</guid>
		<description>sure, as long as we keep our wits about us and remember that we may differ on what &quot;the best of the three worlds&quot; is. I try to do that for myself in Chapter 2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sure, as long as we keep our wits about us and remember that we may differ on what &#8220;the best of the three worlds&#8221; is. I try to do that for myself in Chapter 2.</p>
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		<title>By: Nell Edgington</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1069</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell Edgington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 22:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1069</guid>
		<description>As I understand the argument in your book, your belief is that business cannot create real social change.  So therefore the idea that a for-profit business model can shove it&#039;s way into the arena of social good and make all the difference is unrealistic and full of hubris.  I tend to agree.  

And further, what I believe, and what I am asking you to consider, is that there are other aspects to convergence (beyond for-profit taking over the world of social good). For example, social good is becoming more of a consideration in regular for-profit business models--the burgeoning corporate social responsibility movement.  Or nonprofit organizations are embracing some aspects of a for-profit business model in terms of scale, efficiency, clearer integration of the revenue model into their work, tracking results, creating strategy, goals, etc.  Surely these aspects of convergence are a good thing?

I am not arguing, nor do I believe, that business is the answer to what ails us. However, I do think that there is tremendous benefit in a convergence of the three sectors when that means that the best of each of the three worlds is integrated toward a better, stronger social outcome in the end.  Can&#039;t we take the best of the three worlds and use that to create real social change?

Perhaps on this we can agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand the argument in your book, your belief is that business cannot create real social change.  So therefore the idea that a for-profit business model can shove it&#8217;s way into the arena of social good and make all the difference is unrealistic and full of hubris.  I tend to agree.  </p>
<p>And further, what I believe, and what I am asking you to consider, is that there are other aspects to convergence (beyond for-profit taking over the world of social good). For example, social good is becoming more of a consideration in regular for-profit business models&#8211;the burgeoning corporate social responsibility movement.  Or nonprofit organizations are embracing some aspects of a for-profit business model in terms of scale, efficiency, clearer integration of the revenue model into their work, tracking results, creating strategy, goals, etc.  Surely these aspects of convergence are a good thing?</p>
<p>I am not arguing, nor do I believe, that business is the answer to what ails us. However, I do think that there is tremendous benefit in a convergence of the three sectors when that means that the best of each of the three worlds is integrated toward a better, stronger social outcome in the end.  Can&#8217;t we take the best of the three worlds and use that to create real social change?</p>
<p>Perhaps on this we can agree.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1068</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1068</guid>
		<description>It is untenable Nell, which is why I haven&#039;t made it! If you read my arguments carefully, you&#039;ll see that I&#039;m all for engaging with market forces to promote social change, but from a position of strength and independence so that the depth of that change can be increased. My fear is that &quot;convergence&quot; will weaken that impact, and we already have a lot of evidence to prove it. It&#039;s in chapter 3 of &quot;Small Change: Why Business Won&#039;t Save the World.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is untenable Nell, which is why I haven&#8217;t made it! If you read my arguments carefully, you&#8217;ll see that I&#8217;m all for engaging with market forces to promote social change, but from a position of strength and independence so that the depth of that change can be increased. My fear is that &#8220;convergence&#8221; will weaken that impact, and we already have a lot of evidence to prove it. It&#8217;s in chapter 3 of &#8220;Small Change: Why Business Won&#8217;t Save the World.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Nell Edgington</title>
		<link>http://www.socialvelocity.net/2010/01/convergence-cant-be-denied/comment-page-1/#comment-1067</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell Edgington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.socialvelocity.net/?p=1408#comment-1067</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I&#039;m not arguing inevitability.  I am arguing that nonprofits have always been subject to market forces and that is increasingly the case, as is the case, in an increasing fashion, that the private sector is subject to social forces.  This is what is called convergence.  It is not inevitable, it is merely what is occurring.  My argument is that to deny the fact of this convergence and to insist that the nonprofit and private sectors remain separate (as if they could) is not realistic.  You must admit that the market is not merely &quot;up to us&quot; but rather is a very complicated system with so many variables that it is not able to be controlled by any one factor.  Therefore the argument that you can somehow keep social change away from market forces is untenable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not arguing inevitability.  I am arguing that nonprofits have always been subject to market forces and that is increasingly the case, as is the case, in an increasing fashion, that the private sector is subject to social forces.  This is what is called convergence.  It is not inevitable, it is merely what is occurring.  My argument is that to deny the fact of this convergence and to insist that the nonprofit and private sectors remain separate (as if they could) is not realistic.  You must admit that the market is not merely &#8220;up to us&#8221; but rather is a very complicated system with so many variables that it is not able to be controlled by any one factor.  Therefore the argument that you can somehow keep social change away from market forces is untenable.</p>
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