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Sparking a Movement Toward Outcomes: An Interview with Mario Morino

By Nell Edgington



Mario MarinoIn this month’s Social Velocity blog interview, we’re talking with Mario Morino. Mario is co-founder and chairman of Venture Philanthropy Partners, one of the oldest venture philanthropy funds, and chairman of the Morino Institute, a nonprofit focused on technology for social change. His career spans more than 45 years as entrepreneur, technologist, and civic and business leader. He also recently wrote Leap of Reason: Managing to Outcomes in an Era of Scarcity, which I recently reviewed here on the blog.

You can read past interviews in our Social Innovation Interview Series here.

Nell: In your book Leap of Reason, you tell the leaders of the nonprofit sector that they need to make a fundamental shift in how they conduct business. Have you gotten any push back from nonprofits or philanthropists? Or has all of the response to the book been positive?

Mario: We are pushing for some hard changes, so we expected some hard reactions. But to our surprise, the response from nonprofit, for-profit, and public-sector leaders alike has been overwhelmingly positive.

We’ve asked ourselves why we’re not getting more push back. There are probably several factors at work. For one thing, the people who have taken the time to read the book are probably those who are more inclined to be receptive to this message. Those who are natural critics—for instance, those who believe mission and metrics are mutually exclusive or that discipline inhibits charismatic, entrepreneurial leadership—may not have read it. And so that shoe may drop at some point. The more we push beyond those already singing in the choir, the more constructive push back we’ll get.

I’d like to think that another factor is the way we presented the case. We made a forceful case, but we weren’t strident in our tone. We have a strong appreciation for the reasons why these management approaches have not been more widely adopted in the social sector. We sought to focus on what to do versus placing blame.

Nell: Do you think the majority of nonprofits will adopt an outcomes-management approach? And if so, when? What will be the tipping point?

Mario: Even when you take into account all of the work on outcomes, accountability, and mission-effectiveness over the past 15+ years, only a small slice of nonprofits (or government agencies, for that matter) have adopted an outcomes-management approach. So I fear that we’re in for only incremental adoption, unless our sector finds a way to seize the opportunity in this era of scarcity. This funding crisis can enervate or energize us. I really hope it’s the latter. In other words, I really hope this crisis will lead people to look much harder at what they do and how they can do it more efficiently and effectively. I hope it will cause them to go beyond incremental improvement and fine-tuning to rework fundamentally what it is they do.

Nell: It seems that this is a charge you are very much willing to lead. Beyond writing the book, what are you doing to lead the effort to create this fundamental shift in the nonprofit sector?

Mario: I would certainly like to join others in advancing this shift in the social sector and even lead in some areas. But I don’t think I’ve earned the stature to be the leader of a movement of this type. Even with 15+ years in the social sector, some still see me as a newbie!

As I said in the book, to help kick things off I would welcome helping to convene a select group of early adopters who have “been there and done that” and those most instrumental in helping them. I hope that a collective leadership will emerge and offer the beginning of an effort that could put our sector on a different and much more rapid trajectory.

As others began to follow their example, the network effect might well start to take hold. Imagine universities incorporating the outcomes-management mindset and discipline into nonprofit leadership curricula. Imagine funders offering outcomes-management grants to nonprofit leaders who show a real predisposition to use information well, and hiring seasoned staff members who have the expertise to provide strategic counsel and assistance to grantees. Imagine nonprofit leaders and staff joining together in peer-learning networks to share, learn, and push one another. Imagine government funders encouraging and rewarding successful outcomes management through new types of contracts and awards. A cadre of leaders and doers could help spark all of these things—and in doing so, spark a real movement.

Nell: What role can and should philanthropists, both foundations and individual donors, play in the effort to shift the nonprofit sector toward an outcomes approach?

Mario: Funders generally don’t provide the kind of financial support and strategic assistance that nonprofits need to make the leap to the outcomes-management discipline. While a lack of funding is by no means the only barrier, I know many nonprofit leaders who would take up the challenge in a heartbeat if funding, advice, and encouragement were available. The hard truth is that far too many funders have been conditioned to insist that every dollar “support the cause” through funding for programs. They don’t want “overhead” to dilute their grants.

To make the leap to outcomes management, nonprofits need creative funders, like the Edna McConnell Clark Foundation, that are willing to help them manage smarter through greater use of information on performance and impact—rather than forcing them to meet myriad evaluation and reporting requirements that too often do little to help the organization learn and improve. They need funders who understand that making the leap requires more than program funding, and more than the typical “capacity-building” grant. They need funders who are willing to make multi-year investments and offer strategic assistance to help nonprofit leaders strengthen their management muscle and rigor.

Nell: What does an outcomes approach look like for a social service nonprofit with an annual budget of $100,000?  How does this approach apply across the sector?

Mario: It’s hard to adopt this approach if you’re in an organization that small. It would be folly to expect a nonprofit with that budget to have formal outcomes systems, metrics, and the like. That said, I’ve never thought quality and “goodness” were functions of size. Shouldn’t every nonprofit, regardless of its size and infrastructure, have a clear sense of what it’s trying to accomplish, a thoughtful strategy for how it’s going to do so, and some sense of how it will know if it gets there? It’s perfectly understandable that such a small organization may never have crafted a “theory of change” in a formal way, but the organization’s leader needs to have this framework embedded in his or her mind. If not, what’s the rationale for asking others to contribute time and money to support the nonprofit’s work? What’s the basis for asking intended beneficiaries to put faith and trust in the nonprofit’s services?

Nell: What do you think will happen to nonprofit organizations that don’t adopt a managing to outcomes approach? What does the future look like for them?

Mario: They will continue on as they have—at least for a while.

The fiasco with Greg Mortenson and the Central Asia Institute is a cautionary tale. Mortenson had a great story, and for a while his donors took it on faith that his organization was delivering on his grand promises in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Sadly, it appears the organization turned out to be better at fattening Mortenson’s book royalties than building quality programs.

I don’t mean to suggest that all nonprofits are like Mortenson’s! Far from it. But I do mean to suggest that in an era of scarcity, there will be more pressure on nonprofits to show that they are delivering on their promises. More public and private funders will finally look under the hood and ensure things are working well.

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About the Author: Nell Edgington is President of Social Velocity (www.socialvelocity.net), a management consulting firm leading nonprofits to greater social impact and financial sustainability. Social Velocity helps nonprofits grow their programs, bring more money in the door, and use resources more effectively. For more information, check out Social Velocity consulting services and clients.


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8 Comments to Sparking a Movement Toward Outcomes: An Interview with Mario Morino

Susan Hale Whitmore
July 21, 2011

Mr. Morino and his group are making a new and wonderful contribution to social service organizations, especially the NGOs which have either been plugging along slowly for many years or caught fire and grown faster than anyone could handle.

At first, I was glad to see him say, “We have a strong appreciation for the reasons why these management approaches have not been more widely adopted in the social sector. We sought to focus on what to do versus placing blame.” But a reference he makes later in the interview seems to contradict that level of understanding and compassion:

“The fiasco with Greg Mortenson and the Central Asia Institute is a cautionary tale. Mortenson had a great story, and for a while his donors took it on faith that his organization was delivering on his grand promises in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Sadly, it appears the organization turned out to be better at fattening Mortenson’s book royalties than building quality programs.”

While we all have reason to believe that Mr. Mortenson has been careless, sloppy, and contradictory in various aspects of his work, I challenge Mr. Morino to cite CAI’s lack of “quality programs.” If he is privy to information about CAI that the rest of us don’t have — whether about revenue or expenditure, past programs or current work — then he should share it. If sharing it would be unethical for any reason, then he should never have cited CAI one way or the other in a public interview.

Thank you for the book, Mr. Morino. No thanks for the casual “slander” of a good organization.

[…] Velocity interviews Mario Morino about his manuscript on managing toward outcomes and what’s next for the social sector. A must […]

Mario Morino
July 26, 2011

Thanks, Ms. Whitmore, for your comments. I do not have first-hand knowledge of Mortenson’s programs. My comment that “it appears the organization turned out to be better at fattening Mortenson’s book royalties than building quality programs” was based on the “60 Minutes” and Krakauer reports as well as reading or listening to comments by others who had been skeptical of Mortenson’s work well before the larger stories broke. I have no desire to compound the trouble here and am sure that some good came of his work. But passages like this, from Krakauer’s “Three Cups of Deceit,” give me the strong sense that CAI is not delivering on its promises to those it serves:

• “A significant number of CAI schools exist only on paper. ‘Ghost schools,’ they’re called by the disillusioned residents of Baltistan, where at least eighteen CAI buildings now stand empty.”

• “Many CAI schools that actually get built, moreover, were later abandoned due to lack of CAI support.”

• International lawyer Tanya Rosen’s “report that some CAI schools were empty—including the Hushe school, which Mortenson has long trumpeted as one of his most satisfying accomplishments—was disturbing. When I asked Rosen to elaborate, she replied that the elders of Hushe village told her ‘the school was built by Mortenson and that’s where the support ended.’ It was run thereafter by government teachers, and the ‘poor quality of education was one of the reasons that the community decided to set up its own private school in a more modest building nearby with a more varied curriculum which includes English.”

I hope my macro point is not lost as a result of the illustration I chose. My point is simply that stories are great for communicating and building passion for action, but they are not adequate for managing an organization and ensuring that we’re doing all we can for those we serve.

Innovative Thinker
July 27, 2011

“… era of scarcity.” Hmm… Is that a prediction?

Julia Bergman
August 2, 2011

Please go to http://www.ikat.org, and then to the Blog, for many responses to the allegations made against Greg Mortenson & the Central Asia Institute. Just yesterday narrative and photos were posted from the Bozoi Gumba school in the Pamir mountains of Afghanistan. This school is on the cover of Krakauer’s so-called book and was described as a “ghost school”. It’s nothing of the sort! Please do not believe that 60 Minutes & Krakauer reported the truth about anything – it was a shameful & nasty character assassination. The truth is on http://www.ikat.org – go read it.

[…] CEO of Venture Philanthropy Partners (VPP), a philanthropic investment organization (co-founded by Mario Morino) that helps great leaders build strong, high-performing nonprofit institutions. She has over thirty […]

[…] July 2, 2011 by Josh Dormont Social Velocity interviews Mario Morino about his manuscript on managing toward outcomes and what’s next for the social sector. A must read You might also enjoy…Solving problems: data across the organizationTackling the […]

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